"I have to thank NABU, SAPO and NAPC that we have this process [of fighting corruption] or are starting to be effective. We really have an understanding of the presence of punishment. And that even top officials or poplar tycoons can be punished for various reasons. This is very correct.
But I would not want it to turn into a game of "catch me if you can". It's like the one who gets caught is the one who loses. It's like a social contract: if you want to be successful, go to the government, try to steal without being caught by NABU," the businessman says.
In his opinion, this social contract needs to be changed from the bottom. Understanding at the level of the elite or the Facebook bubble is not enough, Liski adds.
"Just punishing top corruption may work, but it takes a long time and is very painful for the state. We do not provide another role model. And here I really hope for the NACP. Because it is necessary not only to punish and clean up; to show that this is not the way to do things. It is also necessary to show how it should be done," says the Chairman of the Supervisory Board of EFI Group.
The first thing to do, in his opinion, is to change the principle of selecting people for government jobs.
"As the head of a large organisation, I understand that you can weed out 90% of the unsuitable people at the recruitment level. All the tools are there. You don't need to hire ministers, deputy ministers, judges who are set up for corruption. They follow it because they cannot do otherwise. We don't need this game of "they won't get caught". Because building a system with the presumption of guilt is very expensive. When everyone is guilty, we suspect everyone. In a proper modern democratic country, the system is built on a 90% presumption of innocence, and there are about 10% of deviations that are monitored by law enforcement agencies. But when we suspect everyone, when we understand that everyone can steal, that every MP and minister needs to be watched, it is very expensive. We will not build either an effective or a fair state in this way," Ihor Liski is convinced.
In his opinion, the country needs a system of social lifts to be put in place so that honest, decent, responsible people, "who want to change something, not steal," come to power.
"They need to be told that they are decent, responsible, can live in dignity and benefit the state and society. And for those who deviate, here is a punishing sword. And not the other way round, that you are all thieves, we will certainly not catch everyone, but we will catch some. This is not how it works," the businessman said.
"Usually, it takes at least one generation, and preferably two, to change the social contract or role behaviour. Unfortunately, we don't have that time. If Ukrainians do not believe that Ukraine is a fair state where they trust the institutions of power, the president, the army, the SBU, the NABU, the TRC, we will lose. Therefore, we must make extraordinary efforts now," said Ihor Liski.
In his opinion, the success of a state is measured by four main factors:
- Sovereignty
"We should not be forced to join the European Union or NATO or not. What kind of president to have. If we like Zelenskyy, we will have Zelenskyy. If we like someone else, we will have someone else. The choice is ours," the businessman argues.
- Rights, freedoms, justice
"I don't want to live in a country where everything will be fine with bread, butter, or anything else, but you are disenfranchised and unfree, you have an unjust state. We are fighting for this. And this cannot be given away even for the sake of victory," explains Liski.
- GDP per capita
"A country cannot be successful and self-sufficient, developed, if everyone is poor as a church mouse," he adds.
- Pride at the level of mentality and nation
"This is already partly there. When you travel the world and proudly say that you are a Ukrainian. This is the respect and dignity that we are shown for our history, for who we are, for our mentality, for the Ukrainian language. I would like this dignity to be converted into dignity for our economy, our businesses, our goods. I want us not to be beggars and ask, "We are protecting you, so please feed us. So that we could be worthy builders of the world order, economy, politics, and security. We should be equal among equal Western civilisations. This is my dream," the businessman summed up.